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Old 10-21-2004, 11:39 PM   #1
Wentonto
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angry What's wrong with THIS picture?????

I find this group of people extremely frustrating. It definitely is not a place that makes me feel welcomed or wanted anymore. I have decided to vent publically and then move on.

Let's start with the very first post I made when I came back. It was a poem that I was really eager to share. I posted it and was told to post elsewhere.
Admitedly, most of my other poems have met with a pretty good reception ~ of course only 1 or 2 read them.

Now let's talk about this open discussion forum section.

Basically every post I have made in general discussion has been treated with disdain or has been scoffed at.

I am told my points are invalid because I don’t have facts -- I give facts and the same person chastises me for using facts.

I was criticized and called names for wandering off topic in the same thread where I was called a fat lazy person with no morals. Funny but that was not on topic. -- And please let me clarify that the name-calling happened before I went off topic.

I was challenged to find 2 things that Jesus said to do that Bush has done ~ I sited 3 and was treated like an imbecile and told I did not meet the challenge because I could not prove that Bush ever honored his father or mother or had compassion or prayed... That, my dears, is ludicrous to say the least. Even Joe scoffed at my post and said that honor they father and mother did not count because it was technically Old Testament, so I had to find a quote where Jesus directed people to show honor without quoting the Old Testament. I mean how petty and insane does it get? (Sorry Joe)

I sited reasons for not supporting Kerry and was jumped for bashing Kerry when there was nothing negative in that post. Just a comparison of the candidates’ policies on things like energy and education.

Another time, I asked a question about Heinz Kerry’s comment on Mrs. Bush ~ since Bush was being bashed for comments he allegedly made. Again I was scoffed at because she did not make the comment about all women.

Lets see, I have been called hypocritical, thin skinned, fascist, among other things – of course if you want to go back and see those posts to verify the disrespect shown me, many of them have since been edited. And in all fairness, I did get an apology from one of the name callers. But not all…

I could babble on all night, but I guess there is some truth to the thin skin comments. After what seems like months of verbal abuse (and in reality not even one month) I can no longer just post my opinion and move on. I find that I get angry at the tone of the posts, and I find myself seeing names and thinking “oh God, not that person again” and other not too pleasant thoughts.

Years ago, I came here and felt wanted and welcomed. I was even one of the first moderators that AC had. I never posted a poem and worried if it would anger people again because I posted. I welcomed and encouraged criticism of my work so that I could grow as a poet. Beki worked with me a lot so that I could write Haiku ~ but I never mastered it. Never, ever did she tell me my work did not belong in Haiku because it wasn’t true haiku. Instead she told me what didn’t work and why. I stopped writing Haiku because I sucked at it. Not because I worried about the reactions to my pieces.

We didn’t have a general chat section that I can remember. But many of us talked on icq all the time. We had an ever-growing family. We welcomed new people and encouraged them to post more often. I felt so special posting here. Unfortunately, my marriage of 24 years came to an end and my life unraveled. Now that I am secure in life again, I wanted to come home to AC and start again.

I feel like a Viet Nam vet coming home (sorry could not resist the parallel to the other posts) or maybe like used cat litter.

At any rate, if it was just this one forum that made me uncomfortable, I could move on and never go here. But I got the same negativity posting my first poem back…. And I am afraid to post most of my poems now although only a few have apparently angered people...

i guess there is some truth to the cliche that you can never go home again..


I am sorry Joe, but my time here is most likely drawing to a close.
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Old 10-22-2004, 12:15 AM   #2
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Would it help if I said I was sorry? You've been around this place before, but I'm kinda new here. I used to hang out in a place where the heat got turned up a notch or two in the debates pretty routinely and no one thought much of it. Things are different here, of course, so the adjustment needs to be made. I don't know. I guess when I'm feeling "ganged up on" (inevitable if one spends enough time in a forum setting), I just try to give some of it back with as much calm as I can muster and not worry too much about it. I'm sorry you feel compelled to leave.
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Old 10-22-2004, 12:36 AM   #3
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And, I have already apologized if you had a chance to read my post under "Choosing A President". We don't mean to be so harsh, but I really think we are all tense about the election. I have numerous fears about what is going to happen, why people may be voting for Bush, and so on. I don't mean to be offensive and I am sorry if I have ever come across that way.

We don't mean to chase you away. In fact, it's refreshing to hear opposing points of view, if we/I could only keep some objectivity about it. Speaking for myself, you are definitely welcome here, and I have enjoyed our exchanges on other threads.
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Old 10-22-2004, 12:39 AM   #4
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wentonto, you have a very wise voice, and benevolent. i wish you would grow some skin, and stay.



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Old 10-22-2004, 01:20 AM   #5
Doreen Peri
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Hi Wentonto.

I didn't read all of the exchanges which brought about this reaction, but I read some.

I thought all involved posted some very engaging discourse. Everybody spoke their minds, including you.

I didn't witness any name-calling or personal slamming.

What I witnessed with a free exchange of ideas which included heated emotions, as it should when important ideas are being debated.

If people don't CARE, why bother?

If there is no ability to see all sides of an issue, why bring the issues up to begin with?

Some families don't talk religion and politics.

Too many arguments. Too much stress. Someone ends up offended.

I was brought up in a family where we were taught to listen, pay attention, get pissed, tell the truth the way we see it, ask questions, answer to why we think the way we do, make suggestions, express our feelings, be receptive to the feelings of others, get pissed again if we have to, speak our peace, and try to hear it when another speaks theirs, even if it means you feel like bashing his or her head against the wall as a display of what you really MEAN when you say you're a pacifist.

heh...

well, as my sister and I used to say, "We put the FUN in disfunctional!" lol

But seriously, without such debate and open-minded energy and assertive opinions and fact-finding goals and moral devotions on every side of issues, we don't go anywhere. We stagnate. We don't learn anything. We become numb.

And this is what I think has happened to the big American Family which is now is being sedated by rhetoric on both sides of an empty two-party-one-party-it's-my-party-and-I'll-cry-if-I want-to system.

Numbness never did anybody any good.

Soooooo..... I say.... carry ON! Keep the words coming! Let the emotions come out! Be like the Suess elephant who said, "I meant what I said/ and I said what I meant! An elephant's faithful/ one hundred percent!" *smile*

No wait! That sounds like Bush.

Never mind.

I had a point here but I lost it trying to relay it but I think you get the drift.

Hell, what did you expect? I spent years putting the fun in disfunctional.

And oh how happy I am that I was brought up that way!

Don't feel like your opinions weren't heard. You PUBLISHED them to the entire world right here. Imagine that! Believe me. You have been heard loud and clear and MANY will read your take on things. (No matter how very wrong I truly believe you are)

Welcome to the worldwide web where we can speak our minds and share a free exchange of ideas!

Applause to all of you who have participated in the recent threads about the upcoming election and the state of the world.

You have done the world well by your presence, your voice, and your convictions. I wish I was half as articulate.

(except all of you who don't agree with every word I say..... LOL!)

And thanks, Joe, for this place... it's awesome!

Last edited by Doreen Peri; 10-22-2004 at 01:51 AM.
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Old 10-22-2004, 03:03 AM   #6
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please don't leave me alone


Anyway, some people here are predictable, so be it

If you notice, I specifically stayed away from that Jesus challenge, what a trap of illogic!

I have found your reasons for your support of Bush well thought out, and articulate; and refreshing (I may at first appear to be an omnipotent, impenetrable bastion of iron-hard, thick-skinned, pachyderm power, but it is only a front); I need validation too.

That being said, I have sparred with many here, and some here avoid me all together, in fact some here are like roaches, and I am the light in the kitchen that they run from – so be it.

By inference, and directly I have been accused of being dumb, blind, angry, robotic, ect, ect.

But I know that I have changed minds, and influenced people, and many here have re-thunk their positions because of me. This I know.

And perhaps my moniker is more appropriate than I would care to admit.

As to your poetry postings, I cannot comment, but...

Please don’t go.
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Old 10-22-2004, 03:10 AM   #7
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*sigh*

As for my comments regarding the Jesus thing... *sigh* Umm think you need to ask around. When it comes to religion and me, well it's like vinegar and water... we don't mix because I'm Scaenic. So sorry I thought you might know that 'if Joe talks about religion just ignore him' bit which I fully advocate most of the time.

Not to turn this into a political debate, but the last nearly 4 years this whole country and in fact the world has become totally divided. Thank our politicians and the dumbing down of the media due to their corporate owners and in large part to the masses shortening attention span. (I'll avoid the actual causation of that because of the above mention paragraph thing). To lay even indirectly that divide at my or AC's door step like I/we created it is wrong. Should have I perhaps outlawed political discussion this year due to that divide... perhaps. That I will take blame for, but the rest... eh *shrug* I'm not touching with a 30 ft pole. Plus is that whole if did forbid such talks then I'd be the big bad meanie censoring people, which also might cause people to leave. Is a damn if do and damned if don't thing I think.

Honestly, it's an artistic/literary site, so you have to realize social/political discussions are going to naturally be lean more towards the liberal side just by virtue of that.

Personally I'm hoping after this election (and the horrid legal nightmare that follows) that perhaps the world and this country may try to fix the horrible gap we've been severed into and rediscover the middle of the road again. Suppose there's always hoping.

However that being said... none of that negates our site/forum rules. So if you feel a post is a personal attack on you or violating any other site rules (see Forum rules & guidelines) then please use the 'report this post' link that's found on every individual post. A notice is sent to all moderators of that forum about it, which then is always investigated, considered, and appropriate action taken.

Anyway.. the poem thing. Umm if is the situation I'm recalling* was a simple matter of there was a more topic appropriate forum for it was all. That's nothing remotely personal. Though I suppose if haven't used AC in a few years or such the number of forums and such may admittedly seem daunting or confusing. However if you feel the notice you got about such was not clear about that, or not nice enough, mean spirited, personally negative or something, let me know so I can crack any appropriate staff heads necessary.

* = questionable since I have permanent brain damage that greatly affects my memory, primarily shorter term, most times.

AC has always had the Open Discussions forum since we went to a multiple forum setup, (January 3, 1998). Of course if you're forgetting such then that is fully understandable given things (length of absence, etc) , especially since I don't recall you were ever really an Open Discussion forum user.* (see above). If you meant the actual Chat Room (see Chat link found at top of most forum pages), then well yes that's probably newer... like a year or so. Though haven't heard any real complaints yet about people harassing others in there. But not to say it can't or perhaps doesn't happen. So please report those too. Ideas, suggestions and such to improve the place are always welcome, as is of course direct help in doing so via volunteering as staff.

Beyond that... I can't force anyone to stay at AC.
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Old 10-22-2004, 08:13 AM   #8
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I appreciate everyone's input. Yes, I expect a debate to get heated when we talk about the president, and of course i realize the artsy people are normally liberal minded. Unfortunately, there is a double stanadard here. The liberals are allowed to use facts to back up what they say, but I can not. The liberals are allowed to attack a their opposing candidate's character, but I am accused of doing that (when I hadnt YET) and then bashed for it. I was challenged to prove Bush is a Christian ~ geesh that is something God has even told us not to do~and when I site things that demonstarte his Christian charity I was told that they dont count because I cant prove his motives. Why make a challenge if you are going to cop out with those statements? the left side is welcome to call people names and make judgement on them while -- oh wait i didnt come here for that...

As for the poem, to this day I still insist that it was posted appropriately. Hell I am the writer of that poem. I know what my subject matter is and what the intention of the poem was when I wrote it. I know where I was and what I was thinking. If someone else reads it, and I wrote it so poorly that they did not understand where I was coming from, that does not mean it does not belong where I, as the author, feel it belongs. Obviously, if I stuck a suicide poem in the humorous section then I posted wrong. I am intellingent enough to judge where my work belongs. Had the people who told me go away read my poem and said, "you know because you use this phrase ... you went into an area we dont welcome here because.... IF you had said something like .... then it would work better in our thread." Instead i was told go post somewhere else. I posted other poems there as a challenge to myself and got the same negative reactions. I have a masters degree in English ~ yet I guess I don't know how to write correctly enough to post in that particular clique's thread.

Yes Joe, I know you and religion don't mix. But until yesterday, you have always used logic and fairness at least in my eyes.

I guess because I am an artist (despite voting against Kerry) I do have a sensitive side to me. Normally I can debate without getting offended or angry. But that is when we have equal playing fields. This is not the case here.

Anyway, as you see, I have not left AC yet. I will not be quick to post anything in this forum where the discussion is led by people so blinded by hate that they cant see past their own noses.

AND I plan to continue posting in the clique's thread just because I can and I know where my poems belong.
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Old 10-22-2004, 08:37 AM   #9
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Quote:
AND I plan to continue posting in the clique's thread just because I can and I know where my poems belong.
clique's thread? am I missing something?
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Old 10-22-2004, 08:38 AM   #10
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Quote:
The liberals are allowed to use facts to back up what they say, but I can not. The liberals are allowed to attack a their opposing candidate's character, but I am accused of doing that (when I hadnt YET) and then bashed for it.
Hey... use as many *facts* as you want but be prepared for people to dispute the fact that they are facts at all and if someone posts *facts* which you don't think are facts, go ahead and say so.

Allowed? Anybody's allowed to question the character of a presidential candidate. Go ahead. The candidates themselves attack each other's character on mass media every day. AND they bash each other for attacking each other's character.

What's so different here?

I don't get the big deal. Other than I'm sure it could be uncomfortable being in a minority. But hell, if you have REASON to speak and you think you are RIGHT about various issues, so what if you are in the minority? Speak it if you think it's true. And if it's too stressful for you to debate such issues, then it's probably best you don't discuss them.

I donno.... I care when people's feelings get hurt but I get a little insensitive when they knowingly walk into battle, armed, then complain that they got hit by a little shrapnel.

This is the worldwide web. It's a reflection of the WORLD. If we can't accept each others' differences here and debate important issues open-mindedly, how can we expect the world leaders to do it?

As far as your poem being moved from one spot to the next, I don't get that, either. I've been on the internet since 1998 writing on boards like this and every board is set up a different way and every board has rules and every board has different forums for different purposes and the powers-that-be move poetry from one forum to the next on a regular basis because they are the ones handling the filing and the show. I've had mine moved from forum to forum many times (not here, I don't think, but many times at another place.... because I had a hard time discerning what their criteria was for the catagories).

What "clique's thread" are you referring to? Where's the poem now? There are cliques here? You're kidding!

*sigh*..... ohhh the internet can be so confusing sometimes.
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Old 10-22-2004, 08:59 AM   #11
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does "cliques thread"
mean 'forum' - as in d*o*s
or the thread about wmd?
or both?

thought i would ask.
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Old 10-22-2004, 09:04 AM   #12
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Well, I wasn't going to say anything more about this, but it seems like you keep pushing the ill will here, Wentonto.

And I am not blinded by hatred toward Pres. Bush. I actually admired the way he led the nation directly after 9/11, and while I didn't wholeheartedly endorse his Afghanistan invasion, I understood its purpose and I did not publicly object. My anger is rooted in the specific actions that George W. Bush and his team have employed regarding Iraq. I believe he misled the world, and the consequences could be enormous. That's what my anger is all about. It is not "blind hatred", or endless foaming on about "right and left". Far from it.

As for the technique(s) and specific types of exchanges in the debate....well, now I know this place a little better and I know you a little better, so there's a good chance that my earlier mistakes won't be repeated. And I did apologize, and I did mean it. Might it be possible to move on from there?

Last edited by mnaz; 10-22-2004 at 09:30 AM. Reason: clarity
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Old 10-22-2004, 09:28 AM   #13
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Note: At first I misread your "clique" comment to apply to Discussion, so I had some comments, but now I see that it was regarding poetry, so I'll let the people involved comment. Sorry.

Last edited by mnaz; 10-22-2004 at 09:34 AM. Reason: correction, clarification
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Old 10-22-2004, 09:41 AM   #14
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sorry you feel put out. hopefully screaming it out to the world has helped you vent a bit of your frustration. anyway, i guess that's all i should bother to say about that. i don't want you to feel like i'm picking on you by disagreeing with anything you have said. rock on!
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Old 10-22-2004, 10:18 AM   #15
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Wentonto, this happens to almost every Bush supporter who comes on the board. Only Cal and Rhino and Nanna have been able to sweat it out, thus far -- and they contribute much to the conversations. Kudos to them -- perhaps you will be one of the lucky few. I didn't call YOU fat, I was speaking of "the royal fat," -- I have no way of knowing if you're fat, or not. My comments about the GOP are not directed at YOU, per se, only the horde of Bush supporters. If you're part of the herd, by default, maybe some if does or does not apply to you -- but it's certainly not personal.

As for Pretzeldent Lush, I don't hate him -- I think he's a buffoon and a charlaton and a fake rancher (the ranch was purchased in 1999 as a presidential prop), a dry-drunk, a draft-dodger, a drooler, an extreme radical and an arrogant bastard -- but this does not necessarily translate into hate.

What I hate is the the anti-intellectualism of the GOP, and I'm not a big fan of Social Darwinism, either -- I mentioned before that I believe in the philosophical and transformational ethic of Jesus Christ, as allegory, because, as many of the wise left-wing, secular, Enlightenement founders of our country believed, though "I am a materialist and not a spiritualist," but I do believe in the deferrence of the self and the instant gratification of the self and of the body to something that circumvents mere instinctual animal nature. I don't believe it's an absolute -- but it's what I believe in.

So I am against the rejection of reason, reality, study, the scientific method, empiricism etc. -- even though I do not necessarily believe that these things are absolutes, I do prefer them to superstition, fable, mysticism, mythology, religious fundamentalism, etc.

I really don't know that much about Kant, but in answer to your earlier quesiton, I am intrigued by Kant's second formulation (humanity) of the categorical imperative, and how that contributes to egalitarianism -- and egalitarianism as a "moral" in and of itself. And while I'm OK with the idea of a prime mover, I don't necessarily believe in intelligent design or absolutism or universal morality. I do believe in certain morals and concepts, but I'm not about to go suggesting that anything is eternal or absolute. I believe that my idea of morality is first-person phenomenological, and so are everyone elses. So, I believe some of Kant, and I don't believe some of it. Of course, this would make sense, since he's one of the most paradoxical philosophers -- and hard to grasp, I think. What is the point that you wanted to make about this?

Anyway, you just have to take the heat and stay in the kitchen. The thing is, most people are pretty aware, here, and they're not going to let people get away with GOP talking points as an argument.

C
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